Swanston Street

[Tranzit Jim]

We should look back in time when we had a list of William Street routes in addition to the existing Swanston Street routes.

This was changed in late 1980s.

All routes had a matching William street route, except for #3 and #64, which had one route from East Brighton, #64, then joins #3 from there into Domain.

[R 707]

When there are so many trams on Swanston St that they run in blocks of 2 or 3, the question needs to be raised as to whether they are all necessary.

Melbourne passenger syndrome means that when trams bank up, passengers always get on the first one, no matter how full it is. I have travelled Swanston St countless times, and it is not uncommon to see a Z3 packed to the gills followed by a Combino which is carrying literally 2 or 3 people. They both travel the same blocks, and arrive at the University or Flinders St one behind the other. This wasted space can be put to better use in the legal district of William St, where it is not uncommon to look both ways and see no trams in sight. Shoppers are one thing, and are not being neglected under this plan, but there is a regular commute to William St (as evidenced by standing at Flagstaff in peak) which is missing out. Rail connections can also be made through Flagstaff station.

[Obzerva]

If the number of Swanston trams (I think there's 9 routes now) was scaled back to say 7, would it have that significant an impact?

I think you could easily have route 5 running down William st (possibly merged with 55) and maybe run the 72 as well, terminating at Dudley St, or seeing the hospitals are so close, run it down Flemington Rd and terminate in Royal Park - I don't think the capacity lost would be too significant for Swanston St, especially when you consider the 5 and 72 are almost exlusively run with the smaller Z or D1 trams, the larger capacity trams (the B2s/D2s) would still be there to pick up the slack for passengers changing at Domain, and there would still be very regular services as the 3, 6, 8, 16, 64, and 67 are still running along Swanston St from Domain for those passengers (even if another Z class did turn up).

Could also mean an end to the evening Orrong Rd shuttles for the number 5 and an increase in St Kilda Rd services from Domain Rd to St Kilda Junction of an evening as the 5/55 would be running along there from William St.

William St evening services could also go from being one every 20mins as they are now I believe, to one every 10min if scheduled well.

[gwiwer]

Put very simply the number of trams actually in Swanston Street is sometimes excessive when a straight demand versus capacity argument is applied.

What has to be looked at is the bigger picture. Of those routes all except the 1 also operate along St Kilda Road to at least some extent and contribute to the task of shifting passengers over that extremely busy stretch. Flinders Street station to Commercial Road is possibly the busiest section and already YT and others have put forward suggestions as to how best to manage capacity and demand on St Kilda Road.

It is possible to turn back trams at Flinders Street but to do so takes at least a minute or two and therefore imposes capacity constraints and causes delay to following trams. Therefore it is preferable to run them up to the University when ever possible where there is a well laid out turnback facility. The section up to the Uni can also be busy as well though is probably less so than St Kilda Road.

To divert some of the St Kilda Road trams via Kingsway and William Street might hinder more passengers than it helps. There is a peak hour demand to and from the business district of the City around William / Bourke but much less off-peak use is made of trams in this area.

Many users of theSt Kilda Road services are connecting to or from trains at Flinders Street. Not all of these serve Flagstaff making trams by that route a less attractive option as well as adding perhaps 10 minutes to the journey time. If passengers wanted to use a City Loop station they already could go to Central; the fact that few do is evidence to support continued operation via Flinders Street.

Infrastructure changes over many years have reduced alternate route options. It used to be possible to turn from Princes Bridge into Flinders Street facing west. Were this still possible (and having just taken the 48 out of Flinders Street thereby creating more capacity) there might have been a reasonable alternative to running everything up Swanston Street. A single north to west curve reinstated here in conjunction with a west to south one would permit some trams to run a one-way loop around the City via Flinders, Spencer, Spring and Flinders, and with a choice of Collins or LaTrobe Streets (and add Bourke Street if another curve were installed at its east end) to distribute passenger loadings.

It's worth a thought.

[Tranzit Jim]

When did that curve exist.

You mean on the corner of Flinders and Swanston streets?

So trams could turn from the Arts Center direction, and head towards Spencer Street.

There was once a plan to extend or merge the old Batman avenue routes 70 and 77, with some of the Elizabeth street trams. They would have needed the said curve in gwiwer's post.

[R 707]

Another possibility is to send 5 and 72 around the curves at William & Latrobe St, and to then run them up past Melbourne Central and Swanston St before terminating at St Vincents Plaza. The shunt at St Vincents would have to be relocated to between the 109's lines to prevent reverses blocking through services and vice versa.

The City Loop stations are usable by nearly all suburban passengers, given nearly every line runs via the loop to get in and out to the suburbs in peak directions. Given Melbourne Central Station is readily accessible from Swanston St it surprises me that so many insist on using a tram to go to Flinders St. That said, there's also Elizabeth St routes for these users, and a fair number use Bourke and Collins Sts to go to Southern Cross. YT should focus on the suburbs that the routes serve, rather than the shuttle in the city aspect. Folks in the city just grab the first tram, regardless of how full it is or where it's going. While off-peak usage on William St might be low (attributable to 9-5 workers in the region and a poor frequency of route 55), the same can be said for Collins St and Flinders St routes, and the peak benefits to the William St users should outweigh it.

[gwiwer]

When did that curve exist.
You mean on the corner of Flinders and Swanston streets?

Correct. It was taken out of use on 6th April 1942.

it surprises me that so many insist on using a tram to go to Flinders St.

Probably to get a seat; that is not always possible at loop stations.

the peak benefits to the William St users

The peak service on the 55 is already between every 3 - 5 minutes and is close to the same number of trams per hour as pass through Bourke or Collins Streets in the same time period. Those streets however have two and three routes serving them. The 55 is every 12 minutes off peak and matches many other routes so is not really "poor". It is also one of the quieter routes outside of peak hours.

[Bravus]

If passengers wanted to use a City Loop station they already could go to Central; the fact that few do is evidence to support continued operation via Flinders Street.

I'm not sure I'd get to the loop via Sydney, but whatever floats your boat I guess.

[Cameron V]

Given Melbourne Central Station is readily accessible from Swanston St it surprises me that so many insist on using a tram to go to Flinders St.

Just throwing it out there; you can't take a train direct from Melbourne Central to Flinders St on weekday afternoons.

[R 707]

True, but people's final destination is not Flinders St itself, they just use it as the point to switch to a rail service. From Melbourne Central you can catch a service directly to Sydenham, Upfield, Epping, Hurstbridge, Lilydale, Glen Waverley, Alamein, Pakenham, Cranbourne and Frankston, and can fairly easily change at Richmond or North Melbourne for Sandringham/Werribee/Williamstown/V/Line

In the mornings, Melbourne Central is served by incoming trains before Flinders St (and hence would mean more time saved) bar the Epping, Hurstbridge, Werribee, Williamstown and Sandringham lines, who might be the only ones with a valid point for using Flinders St in this regard. Reducing the Clifton Hill group dwell time at Flinders St to a minimum (rather than the standard 5-10mins) would negate the issue for all the abovementioned lines, as they could change.

As for the St Kilda Rd/Queens Rd business district, there should still be ample counter-peak trams to cater for them on the St Kilda Rd stretch

[gwiwer]

Passengers using the Williamstown, Werribee and Sandringham lines cannot use a City Loop station without changing. Most stopping trains to Blackburn and Alamein also run direct to and from Flinders Street. As trains start there boarding at Flinders Street is also the best means of ensuring a seat for the evening trip home to any destination.

There is quite a strong argument for this to be and to remain the major rail : tram interchange point for most journeys. That in turn will have an impact on the need to offer the best possible tram capacity via Princes Bridge and therefore along Swanston Street.

[Mount Sirfeel]

Passengers using the Williamstown, Werribee and Sydenham lines cannot use a City Loop station without changing.

Sandringham

[gwiwer]

Passengers using the Williamstown, Werribee and Sydenham lines cannot use a City Loop station without changing.

Sandringham

I stand corrected thank you. Must be the stormy weather

[xtrapolis954m]

If/When the Metro tunnel gets built, how is this likely to affect the trams running along Swanston Street?

Cheers, Lachlan.

[Bravus]

There is quite a strong argument for this to be and to remain the major rail : tram interchange point for most journeys. That in turn will have an impact on the need to offer the best possible tram capacity via Princes Bridge and therefore along Swanston Street.

Oh great oracle, what would you suggest to fix Swanston Street?