Victoria - Tasmania railway

[Mr. V/Line]

A service between the two biggest cities in Tasmania would be comparable to the service provided between Geelong and Ballarat, which funnily enough is operated by a coach.

It is obvious that Tasmania doesn't compare to Victoria in terms of population. One reason being the state is much smaller and isolated. Take into account that cities do get smaller, so the three cities listed will grow and possibly other too.

There is a railway line between Geelong and Ballarat. I find it stupid that there are no passenger services because it would be heavily supported, seeing as we are dealing with roughly cities with 100,00 people.

Regardless of whether its Bendigo or Ballarat, a similar argument holds in that there is relatively little travel between the two, although admittedly there's no direct coach link (itself indicitive of lack of demand)

There is no reason why we shouldn't do this. The objective of this idea is to allow people from mainland Australia to access Tasmaina via rail.

You never know, this may be start of esablishing a proper trasportation system.

You may argue that Tasmaina doesn't have the population to suuport something like this but people living interstate should be considered to. It's not just Tasmaina using the service.

[R 707]

A service between the two biggest cities in Tasmania would be comparable to the service provided between Geelong and Ballarat, which funnily enough is operated by a coach.

It is obvious that Tasmania doesn't compare to Victoria in terms of population. One reason being the state is much smaller and isolated. Take into account that cities do get smaller, so the three cities listed will grow and possibly other too.

There is a railway line between Geelong and Ballarat. I find it stupid that there are no passenger services because it would be heavily supported, seeing as we are dealing with roughly cities with 100,00 people.

Once upon a time there was a passenger rail service between Geelong and Ballarat, usually a small Walker railmotor or a DERM. Clearly not high patronage. While the cities in Tasmania may get more bodies, it is still nowhere near justifiable to have a mainland rail service there, let alone the tunnel.

Regardless of whether its Bendigo or Ballarat, a similar argument holds in that there is relatively little travel between the two, although admittedly there's no direct coach link (itself indicitive of lack of demand)

There is no reason why we shouldn't do this. The objective of this idea is to allow people from mainland Australia to access Tasmaina via rail.

What possible rational reason could there be to have a rail service to Tasmania? Want to get there quickly, fly, want to get there with posessions/in a car/not on a plane, there is a ferry. Ignoring the GSR tourist services, there are no passenger rail services between any of the mainland cities bar Melbourne-Sydney and Sydney-Brisbane (the Overdue can hardly be considered a 'service'). You don't need rail to every location, VR tried that and look how many lines they closed themselves..

You never know, this may be start of esablishing a proper trasportation system.

No, a proper transportation system caters for demand and uses the most effective means. For Tasmania, as with any other state, plane is by far the most efficient means.

You may argue that Tasmaina doesn't have the population to suuport something like this but people living interstate should be considered to. It's not just Tasmaina using the service.

Anyone that wants to go to Tas uses the existing services, which quite easily handle the mainland hordes.

[Bravus]

Tasmania is a perfect market for the Airbus A320 sized aircraft service. I can't fathom why we would need a railway to get there, least of all one costing as much as a tunnel!

[Mr. V/Line]

Anyone that wants to go to Tas uses the existing services, which quite easily handle the mainland hordes.

This is the problem. We are trying to introduces other methods of transport to get people from Tasmaina to Victoria and other states of Australia.

People make get sea sick and people may be hesitant to use an aeroplane.

Once upon a time there was a passenger rail service between Geelong and Ballarat, usually a small Walker railmotor or a DERM. Clearly not high patronage.

No reason why they can't do an express service between the two cities without having to change in Melbourne. Population wise they are both big regional cities and would be well supported by locals.

What possible rational reason could there be to have a rail service to Tasmania? You don't need rail to every location.

For big cities in Australia (capital cities) you do. Cities like Perth, Brisbane, Darwin even Townsville (and many others) can be accessed by rail except for Tasmaina.

Both states are going to get bigger into the future and I'm not sure whether two modes of transport is going to get people to and from Tasmaina.

What I want to know it can this be done.

[R 707]

This is the problem. We are trying to introduces other methods of transport to get people from Tasmaina to Victoria and other states of Australia.

People make get sea sick and people may be hesitant to use an aeroplane.p

It's unlikely that someone will be both seasick and afraid of aeroplanes, and if they are, tough titties.

No reason why they can't do an express service between the two cities without having to change in Melbourne. Population wise they are both big regional cities and would be well supported by locals.

There is a bus. Why is there a bus? Because that is the level of support.

For big cities in Australia (capital cities) you do. Cities like Perth, Brisbane, Darwin even Townsville (and many others) can be accessed by rail except for Tasmaina.

Ignoring Tourist services (The Ghan and IP, as they are a completely seperate market), there is no existing passenger rail service to Darwin, Perth, directly between Adelaide and Sydney or between Adelaide and Brisbane. The domestic air market has all but killed interstate rail travel

Both states are going to get bigger into the future and I'm not sure whether two modes of transport is going to get people to and from Tasmaina.

If there's enough demand, you will see an extra Spirit of Tasmania ferry and additional flights. Not hard to add.

What I want to know it can this be done.

Physically, yes, economically, no.

[pblair]

Let's look at the facts to help V/Line understand a few things.

There are 3 parts to any infrastructure project - the costs to build, the expected returns/benefits, and the physical possibility/practicality of doing the work.

At a rough guess, Melbourne-Hobart is about 700km. About 200km of that is across open water. The open water is in a shallow (maybe 30m) pond, sitting above some underwater domes that probably contain some rather inflammable gases. So, rather than tunnel, a surface "pipe" (a la the Sydney Harbour tunnel) could be laid. Quite possible to do.

The only drawback is the problem of ventilation. 200km is just too long to ventilate from either/both ends. Chimney stacks in Bass Strait?

Now, the cost. In rough terms, maybe between $30 and $40 billion, which would cover all the route.

The returns? Well, Vic-Tas-Vic daily traffic is about 4000 trips by all modes. That's about 10% of, say, MEL-ADL. Not very busy. Most journeys are "day return" (there and back in the day - probably not possible by train).

A rough one-way ticket cost would be between $2000 and $3000 each way, just to pay the interest on the loan. $4000+ if you wanted to repay the loan.

So - add it all up. Significant difficulties providing fresh air, a considerable capital cost, and an unaffordable ticket cost.

Enjoy Year 10 - things get tougher next year...

Paul

[hk_ayu]

When we don't even have a high speed rail from Melbourne to Canberra to Sydney to Gold Coast to Brisbane, what the hell people think we should get a cross-ocean tunnel from Victoria to Tasmania??

[Mr. V/Line]

Enjoy Year 10 - things get tougher next year.

Paul

Do you have any idea what year level I'm in? I'm sure your guessing and I would like to know what made you come to your conclusion.

We don't have a high speed raiwayl from Melbourne to Canberra to Sydney to Gold Coast to Brisbane, people think we should get a cross-ocean tunnel from Victoria to Tasmania?

Unfortunatley people choose to fly for a number of reasons. This makes building this railway very difficult. pblair has also stated his ideas as well.

[Bravus]

Unfortunatley people choose to fly for a number of reasons. This makes building this railway very difficult. pblair has also stated his ideas as well.

Whats your basis for suspecting that people would prefer to get a train to Tasmania rather than fly?

[Mount Sirfeel]

The talked about railway tunnel from Siberia to Alaska (103 km) Is estemated to cost about 60 billion dollars US.

Who would ever serisury even consider spending 180 odd billion dollars on a trasport link that Is not even needed

[Mr. V/Line]

Whats your basis for suspecting that people would prefer to get a train to Tasmania rather than fly?

The idea of this is to proivide other options for people to get to Tasmaina. Some people would use a train if it was provided (I would) but some people choose to take other modes of transport.

There's bound to be people wanting a railway service from Melbourne to Hobart. Seeing as this is not provided people use the ferry or QantasLink.

[Mount Sirfeel]

Whats your basis for suspecting that people would prefer to get a train to Tasmania rather than fly?

The idea of this is to proivide other options for people to get to Tasmaina. Some people would use a train if it was provided (I would) but some people choose to take other modes of transport.

There's bound to be people wanting a railway service from Melbourne to Hobart. Seeing as this is not provided people use the ferry or QantasLink.

Even If there was a land rail link between Victoria and Tasmania, chances there would even be a Melbourn Hobart passenger train would be remote.

[Steamtostay]

Whats your basis for suspecting that people would prefer to get a train to Tasmania rather than fly?

The idea of this is to proivide other options for people to get to Tasmaina. Some people would use a train if it was provided (I would) but some people choose to take other modes of transport.

There's bound to be people wanting a railway service from Melbourne to Hobart. Seeing as this is not provided people use the ferry or QantasLink.

Fact is, most people just want to get from A to B as quickly as possible. They don't care about how.

Exceptions are people who get seasick, people with aerophobia or gunzels. Of the first two, the chances of having both are incredibly unlikely. And the third - well, how many gunzels per day do you expect to travel between Melbourne and Hobart? In round figures? Who remembers the Yes Minister episode "A Bed of Nails"?

[Mr. V/Line]

If Melbourne to Hobart isn't justifiable, what about Darwin to Indonesia or Australia to New Zealand?

[Unauthorised Officer]

Here is another example of a railway tunnel under construction in Switzerland called Gotthard Base Tunnel project. Its being tunneled under the Alps.

Facts and figures:
* Length: 56.978 km (35.404 mi) (western tunnel) 57.091 km (35.475 mi) (eastern tunnel)
* Total length of all tunnels and shafts: 153.4 km (95.32 mi)

* Start of construction: 1993 (sounding drills), 1996 (preparations), 2003 (mechanical excavation)
* End of construction: 2016–2017
* Commissioning: End of 2017
* Total cost: CHF 9.4 billion (US$9.0 billion)
* Trains per day: 200–250
* Volume of excavated rock: 26,500,000 t (29,211,250 ST; 26,081,473 LT) (13,300,000 m3/17,395,743 cu yd or the equiv. of 5 Giza pyramids)
* Number of tunnel boring machines (TBM): 4 (2 southbound from Amsteg to Sedrun, 2 northbound from Bodio to Faido and Sedrun, section from Erstfeld to Amsteg will also be built with TBM, maybe the same used for Amsteg-Sedrun)
o Total length: 440 m (1,400 ft) (incl. back-up equipment)
o Total weight: 3,000 t (3,307 ST; 2,953 LT)
o Effect: 5 megawatts
o Max. excavation daily: 25–30 m (82–98 ft) (in excellent rock conditions)
o Total excavation length by TBM: about 45 km (28 mi)
o Manufacturer: Herrenknecht, Schwanau, Germany

Final break-through for all tunnels is expected in Nov 2010